Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to Insightful Questions, the podcast where we dive deep into the big ideas shaping Eastside Prep's community and beyond. I'm your host, Sam Uswick. Each episode, I'll be sitting down with different members of our EPS community.
Join us as we ask the insightful questions that help us lead with compassion and listen with intention. Let's get started.
Joining us today is Sarah Agar, who's been with EPS since 2021, teaching a range of middle and upper school math courses, from mathematical foundations to algebra and geometry. Beyond the classroom, Sarah brings her enthusiasm to EBC week trips and coaches our middle school LEGO robotics team where she inspires students to think critically and creatively. We are thrilled to have her here to share her experiences.
We're also joined by our math discipline lead, Steve Fasino. Steve has been teaching math classes both in upper and middle school since he joined EPS in 2014.
Driven by the call to foster deep exploration in mathematics, Steve has also facilitated seminars and mentored students in independent studies. Outside the classroom, he's coached the boys and girls soccer teams and chaperoned many outdoor focused EBC week trips like Big Sur, New Zealand, Catalina island, just to name a few, bringing his love for the outdoors to the EPS community. Welcome to our podcast, Sarah and Steve.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Hi, Sam. Thanks for having us.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: How are you doing today? What's going on?
[00:01:42] Speaker C: Doing all right, I'd say.
Had a couple good classes earlier, so I'm riding that high. Hopefully that continues here.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah, same for me. I had a variety of students today.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Wonderful. All right, great. So we're going to dive right in. As you know, our annual theme is leading compassionately empathetic dialogue. And one of the things I've been saying is that, you know, this is a skill that doesn't just show up in social science classes, you know, and is not just about a presidential election. It's really an essential bundle of skills that persists and that I think schools should really focus on. So, first question, how does empathetic dialogue enhance the learning experience in a subject like math, where answers are sometimes seen as right or wrong?
[00:02:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me personally, and I think as a discipline even, I'd say we value the problem solving process, collaboration, all of those elements, as well as that sort of precise answer getting. So I'd say class experiences focus on that human connection component which requires that empathetic dialogue.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And to add on to that, there's lots of different ways to get to a solution. And so whenever possible, we focus on that. Inquiry and investigation, process of learning.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. So how do you bring the empathy aspect into math instruction?
[00:03:14] Speaker C: So I'd say part of it is with that collaboration component. Right. The kids are very much active at little table groups or up at the whiteboards together. So I think there's an intentionality about getting kids to connect socially. That's one element of it.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And encouraging them that, you know, it's okay to get the wrong answer. It's really about the process and understanding, you know, that they learn from their mistakes.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: So in some ways, by me framing math instruction or even the pursuit of math as seeking right and wrong, that's like a false construct. You know, it sounds like focusing on the process, not just the product. I mean, that links in a lot of ways all of our disciplines, right?
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Yes, definitely.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: What strategies do you use to support students when they struggle with challenging math concepts or if maybe some math anxiety, you know, creeps into their experience?
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah, so math anxiety is really interesting in that it shows up for students at all levels, no matter if they're a high achieving student or a student that has more challenging experiences in the classroom. So giving them time to process is one big component. You know, we do have constraints within the day and within the class trimesters in the school year, but we want to give students a lot of opportunities and wiggle room to kind of play with and learn through the math. We also want students to be able to fail confidently. So you learn from your mistakes and get comfortable being uncomfortable. So, you know, making their thinking visible, checking in with their peers, you know, having that constant dialogue really gives them that opportunity.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: So I have a very vivid memory of math as an elementary school student. We were in Latimer Lanes cafeteria and we were doing this very public on the fly, problem solving competition. So you. It was like a spelling bee, but it was math problems and like, you know, you didn't know what was coming your way and the teacher would share like a problem and, you know, you were rewarded for like being fast, being confident, just knowing it, you know, not, you know, not sitting back and luxuriating in the complication of the process. I didn't use those words then, but that's how I think about it right now. And. But what I recall about it is how public it was and how if you were.
And I think this isn't just a math thing, you know, but that public display of being right seems to infuse the experience sometimes. So as you're thinking about your classroom and you're thinking about your students, how do you create an environment where students feel comfortable sharing their thought processes, even if they're unsure or even don't know an answer yet?
[00:06:07] Speaker C: I think that's part of the classroom culture that each of us are trying to set up is that expectation as Sarah was talking about. You know, we're expecting you to make mistakes, we're expecting you to fail, but we're going to fail together, and it's going to be in an environment that's going to support you. And so part of that, as Sarah said, was getting the thinking up on the whiteboards so you could see other people's thoughts. Makes it sort of less intimidating as opposed to, hey, give me that paper and look at it.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:29] Speaker C: If it's up at the boards already, you can kind of see a bunch of different ideas around the room in a natural way. And it's just kind of normalizing that through each class and just making sure. Yeah, we're, we're on a team here. We're, we're all doing this together. Nobody knows X topic. We're, we're, we're going to venture here as a, as a team. And that's really the message I think we're trying to send.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And giving a lot of opportunities for students to have open ended tasks where there's lots of potential solutions or different ways of thinking. And again, like you said, modeling it in kind of a public format reduces that anxiety and fear of being wrong or having to be right all the time. And I also do this really fun thing in my classroom. I don't know if the kids think it's fun, but I do. I give them their tests and quizzes back, but it doesn't have any scores, so it encourages peer collaboration. And so they have to do corrections, you know, together and work through it and again, be comfortable with their mistakes and learn from them and move forward in that process.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Oh, that's fantastic.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: I've adopted that practice as well. And so it's trickling through both the middle school and upper school.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Nice. I do want to go on record that I didn't win that very public competition. I was a little bummed. But as we started this conversation, it's interesting the memories that surface from our own experience, because so much of our own experience, I think, influences what we're doing in the classroom, sometimes in really positive ways and sometimes maybe not in the greatest way. So anyway, for what it's worth. So can you share a specific example where empathetic dialogue helped a student overcome a math challenge? They were Having.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So something that comes to mind when I think about empathetic dialogue within the classroom is the way students connect with each other. You know, from day one, we're teaching the students that their interactions, the peer to peer dynamics, is really important because you can't learn everything from one person. And it's not always relatable, you know, coming from an adult. So having that conversation and being able to teach each other and learn how to teach each other, not just say, oh, here's the answer. Let me pass you the solution, or let me do it for you. Even we don't want that. So giving kids the opportunity to learn how to teach each other is really important.
[00:08:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd say sort of daily there's interactions of that, these micro moments of students working together. And then I could think of a few courses that I've had where we've had these projects which potentially have many different paths of solving. And then there's a presentation day. And so each student or pair of students is presenting their path for getting to that result. So in a very public way, they're having to share sort of that, their journey as well. And there has to be that understanding between groups about, you know, how did you get here? What does that mean? Why is that different than mine? And that sort of nuance, I think, resonates both at the small level and the big level.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: It strikes me that when new students arrive, you know, they. They've likely. Some of them have been in an environment. In an environment you're describing. And some of them, you know, there's a lot of different ways all of our subjects, math included, are approached. So do you ever encounter any resistance to that model? I mean, do you ever get that, like, whoa, I thought we were in math class moment?
[00:09:55] Speaker B: I would say sometimes, but it's not as frequent. You know, the kids really jump in and embrace the work that you're doing.
Especially with the littler kids, it's easier to mold their, shape their thinking.
They're less rigid. You know, they haven't had as much experience of, like, it has to be exactly this way.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Gotcha.
[00:10:18] Speaker C: And I guess I would say, you know, at the high school level, often there's a little bit more hesitance to. To jump in. And some of that's socially constructed. Right. There's different grade levels in each room. And so some of them just don't know everybody. So maybe that's why they're a little hesitant. But to your question about previous expectations, setting up their current class experience, I think, yeah, Absolutely. They're like, why do I have to collaborate? Why do I have to talk to other people? I'm just used to math being me and my pencil. And now you're adding these other elements which challenge me. Why would we do that?
[00:10:47] Speaker A: And helping them kind of guide them through, you know, acclimatizing to that culture.
[00:10:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: And once they've had one class at eps, they really embrace the structure because it's so similar across all of our, you know, classes.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. I'm going to ask another question, you know, based on sort of that false construct I referenced or established early on, which is, you know, as you balance the need for precision of thinking and precision in math and the importance of focus, fostering a compassionate and understanding classroom, how do you do that? How do you kind of merge those so it's not an either or dynamic?
[00:11:27] Speaker C: I would say the origin of this for me was. Or not the origin, but early part of this for me was with the advent of technology being so fast and readily available. Right. So in the other disciplines, ChatGPT is kind of redefining things. Right. But for math, we've had calculators around and Wolfram Alpha and other technologies that have sort of, you know, expedited thinking. And so I think for a while we've sort of been ahead of this game of having to shift what our focus is. It's not just the answer. Right. It's that journey, that answer finding process and making sure that communication along the way is highlighted.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah, And a lot of that goes in with our integration work that we do within the project. So it's not just learning a math skill and, you know, producing an answer. We do spend a lot of time in our classes finding projects that make real world connections connect with other disciplines, things like that.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Do you have an example of a time you've been able to collaborate with another discipline so that a student was having an experience that bridged different classes? Because, I mean, that's our artificial construct. Like, here's the academic disciplines and then you walk down the street. And the world isn't necessarily neatly divided into those, except that each of them is a beautiful lens to interpret the world. So what are some integrations you've been up to?
[00:12:43] Speaker B: So one of the projects that I do in a class is a book project, it's called Bookish, where students write their own math book and they get the opportunity to choose a specific math concept that they learn throughout the school year. They have independent learning on that. I guide them in the process. They Write and publish their own book, and they illustrate it, and they really get a chance to use technology and a new way, and they use all of their literary devices that they get from their lit class.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Fantastic.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: Say my integrations have been a little bit harder to make happen. I. I blame it on scheduling. I don't know whoever does that, you know, but I blame them.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's me. But.
[00:13:26] Speaker C: But. Sorry, didn't know that. I didn't know that was you, but.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: It used to be.
[00:13:31] Speaker C: But I would say, you know, there's been. Certainly most applications are just science requests related. Right. Taking. Taking a project where you have to collect data about something in your daily life and model that put a fit of function to that. What are these? Extrapolate what these extra data points mean. So I think science thinking would be the closest.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: So how has practicing empathetic dialogue with students impacted your own perspective on teaching math? What have you learned from, you know, engaging in that thinking that's had impact on you?
[00:14:05] Speaker C: Are you thinking that this question is more of, like, a reflection of when I was a student, how. How I approached math?
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Or is it either when you were a student.
[00:14:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: You know, did. What impact did it have on you? Or as you go through your journey as teachers, you know, your professional arc, you know, how has focusing on, you know, helping students to focus on the journey.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: Versus focusing on the answer, has that impacted how you think about the world? How you think about being a teacher of math in ways you've carried forward to other classes and other students?
[00:14:42] Speaker C: Approaching this subject in the way that makes it more human, I think fits absolutely with how I view school as a way that we're making better humans. And so I think the. The worldview shift is natural, actually. I think it makes it a lot more normal. Instead of saying, oh, yeah, we're gonna do this math thing, and it's really, really tight game you have to play. I think making it more human, like, and integrating it and making it feel more personal makes it feel more believable.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah. When I was in college learning to become a teacher, I had this math class that was called Math Discovery, and it was based basically, like, gamifying math instruction. And I thought it was the coolest thing. And I said, this is how I want instruction to be. So I've kind of been doing that since day one. I'm like, this textbook. This is garbage. I don't want to do this. And then I also always add in a personal note. I tell the kids at the start of every school year, I Failed seventh grade math. It did not work for me. It was a textbook. It was 50 homework problems every single day. It was my first period class. I did not care. I did not want to be there. I showed up and took the test and, you know, it was just not the way I thought math should be. And so, you know, learning from that and enjoying math, you know, later in life as an adult, I want to encourage that process with students.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: I think that's. There's a big. There's a theme that you've mentioned about your own math experience versus the experience you want to create for today's students that I think that a lot of us at EPS can relate to. My version of that is when I went to college. My very first history 101 class was unlike any history class I'd taken in my high school in that we were constructing narrative, we were talking about perspective, and I had more agency than a very traditional, you know, so, you know, if the 50 problems in the chapter in math, that's akin to read chapter one on the Roman Empire and then tell me, you know, some dates and some events. And I wanted as well the reason I switched my major that semester. Shocking, impulsive move. And then as I started thinking about teaching, because I kind of had in the back of my head, you know, it was the family biz in some ways, I was like, yeah, yeah. I was like, what would it be like if I were able to bring the experience I'm having right now? You know, when you talk about a more humanistic and connected experience, Steve, or you talk about that relevance, Sarah, and just that excitement that was generated and the relevance, because it really sounded like first period problems 1 through 50 do the odds was not a relevant experience. I had a teacher, I'm a math teacher, said, sam, it doesn't matter if you know why you're doing it, Just show me you can do it. And I was like, but what am I?
[00:17:40] Speaker B: That is the opposite of what we do. Yes, yes, yes.
[00:17:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's great.
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time in the busy day to day of school, you know, when you're meeting with kids and you're grading papers and you're dreaming up new ideas and talking with colleagues. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective on math and how y'all can be a part of this overall conversation about empathetic dialogue at eps. So thank you so much.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:18:14] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: For more insights, be sure to check out the EPS weeks weekly news every Friday.
[00:18:47] Speaker C: Sa.
